A while back, some pastor asked people to burn Korans in protest. Would a real Christian pastor come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea?, would real Christians obey?
In another instance, in Africa somewhere, "witches" were being burned alive, supposedly by new believers who were told they should do that by newly arrived pastors. Would real Christians teach that ?
Those are just a couple recent events that make us Christians look really bad, and that's not the real problem. They make Christianity look really bad. It is so easy for anyone, at the very least, to come to the conclusion that we are really "out of it" when it comes to dealing with real issues.
When I come accross something like that, I immediatelly ask myself: Where did this people get their ideas? Certainly NOT from the Bible.
When anything is said to be found in the Bible, everybody is much to quick to believe it unquestionably. Yet, in just those two instances, it doesn't take much study to prove them wrong.
In the case of the book burnings (of any kind, really ) , hasn't it already been established that that act accomplishes nothing?. More books can be aquired, relegating the "protest" as useless.
In the case of witch burnings, isn't it obvious that witchcraft (like any other abomination) is here to stay and that hating "the sinner" will not accomplish anything either?
I do wish people would think twice about blindly following a leader.
Like I was saying, this interpretation makes more sense to me:
ReplyDelete"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
This means everything. Stars, planets, animals - everything.
Then at a particular point in time for what ever reason (perhaps because of the the fall of Satan)
"The land" was empty and void and darkness was on the surface of the waters as the Spirit hovered over the water"
"The land" is most often a reference to the "good land" or the promised land in the Torah. Job tells us why there is darkness covering "the land"
Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, when I made clouds it's garment and thick darkness its swadling band. Job 38:9
So the perspective is from an observer hovering over the waters in "the land" with darkness covering "the land" because it is covered in thick clouds.
God says let there be light and light from the heavenly bodies appear.
God then clears away the clouds and makes the firmament by dividing the waters above (clouds) from the waters below.
God then clears the water off the ground in "the land" so the dry ground appears.
God then commands "the land" to produce fruit trees and seed bearing plants.
God then breaks apart the cloud cover in "the land" so that the sun, moon, and stars, become visible to the observer on the face of "the land" et., etc,
So, the first thing God does is create the universe and everything in it over billions of years. Then He sets out to prepare "the land" for His people in six days to give them a pattern to follow when He brings them into "the land"
I'm not sure why God would take His time for His first act of creation.
Re "Then at a particular point in time for what ever reason (perhaps because of the the fall of Satan)"
ReplyDeleteHi, Cody_Ray. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.
The way I see it, there's really no need for a "gap" in the narrative to allow for
Satan's involvement at the time of creation.
I believe Satan's fall took place sometime after ALL of creation. Remember Jesus saw Satan fall, and the first time he appears into the picture is when he deceived Eve, while already on the Earth. In all that, I see no need for billions of years of evolution. Another thing to keep in mind is that Satan's fall took place in the unseen realm of the angels. No need for that to interfere with the creation process.
Well, it doesn't have to be the fall of Satan. It could have been a natural disaster in "the land" I don't hold to the gap theory. Neither do I hold to evolution. I'm a special creationist or a progressive creationist.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I know of progressive creationism, If you believe in progressive creation, then you must subscribe to some kind of evolution (not necessarily natural evolution) that will allow for "gaps" in it's development, with God "appearing here and there" to help out the process.
ReplyDeleteI cannot subscribe to that since I don't believe there was death of any kind that would allow for the "changes" to take place. I believe the Bible teaches death entered into the picture only AFTER Adam and EVE sinned.
The Bible doesn't say that death and decay entered in after the fall. Only human death did. Because Adam and Eve fell God blocked off access to the tree of life. It says death spread to ALL MEN because of sin.
ReplyDeleteI think your conclusion is highly debatable.
ReplyDeleteIn the following, all parentheticals are mine.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it (mainly, Adam by his disobedience), in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption (which would include death which it did not know before, else it would not have been a "good" creation) and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
I think it is rather apparent that death DID enter the picture only after sin entered the world.
When the Bible says: "..death spread to ALL MEN because of sin.", in THAT context, must only be applied to people.
The verses I noted mention creation (everything created) was subjected to decay (corruption) after sin, not before.
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ReplyDeleteRomans 8:20-22 describes the enslavement of the entire creation to decay:
ReplyDeleteFor the creation was subjected to frustration, not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the creation will be liberated from it's bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Romans 8 explicitly states when the law of decay will end. It also implies when this slavery began. The verse is suggesting that decay has been in effect since the universe was created, that is, since the beginning of time, a conclusion supported by Jeremiah's declaration that the laws for the heavens and earth are fixed. (Jeremiah 33:25)
Romans 8:19-21 tells us that God subjected the creation to this law, not in punnishment but in hope.
Romans 8 could also refer to another type of decay: the disorder in people's lives and environments that results from their rebellion against God.
Re "The verse is suggesting that decay has been in effect since the universe was created, that is, since the beginning of time.."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's quite a claim, but I don't really think you can deduct that from the verses. In other words, after the fall, the creation itself HAD to change. It could not be that only people (by imputation) would decay, and not the rest of creation; so to put it simply, the narrative clearly teaches that Adam sinned, bringing all of creation down with him, and that is clearly taught in the New Testament.
I hope I have shed some light into your original assertion ("I think it's sad that people can't see that there is more than one way of looking at Genesis One.")
The way I see it, a plain reading of Scripture is what gives the easiest interpretations. It is not until one tries to "expand" on them that one gets entangled in all kinds of unimportant concepts (and by unimportant I only mean views that really confuse the issue). In other words, the "how" is not as important as long as the realization that the Bible is true stands in the end.
I think the verse can be read that way. It doesn't say that because of Adam's sin God subjected creation to decay in punnishment. You're reading into the text. It says God subjected the creation to decay in hope. It was God who did it. Nowhere does it say it was because of Adam and Eve's sin. Re-read what I wrote:
ReplyDelete"Romans 8:20-22 describes the enslavement of the entire creation to decay:
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the creation will be liberated from it's bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Romans 8 explicitly states when the law of decay will end. It also implies when this slavery began. The verse is suggesting that decay has been in effect since the universe was created, that is, since the beginning of time, a conclusion supported by Jeremiah's declaration that the laws for the heavens and earth are fixed. (Jeremiah 33:25)
Romans 8:19-21 tells us that God subjected the creation to this law, not in punnishment but in hope."
Hi, Cody. To say that God created, then subjected the creation to futility from the very beginning (as you seem to think), is something that doesn't quite make biblical sense (if what He made was "very good").
ReplyDeleteIf you read Rom 8:20-22, you'll see that, indeed, God subjected the creation to futility. The question would then become: Why? I believe the cause would have to be Adam's disobedience. Sin, when it entered the picture, changed everything. I cannot picture a world where Adam and Eve would procreate and grow happily, while everything around them was decaying and dying. I don't see that as the original intent of God's good universe.
If anything, I do believe God created everything with the knowledge that sin WOULD come into the picture and set everything in motion (and had already equipped it) so that it would be prepared for what was to come. After all, the plan to fix everything WAS "from the foundation of the world", wasn't it? (Mathew 25:34, and others).
God is not limited by the "laws of the heavens and earth"; if He can make the sun to stand still ( Joshua 10:13), He shows He is above the laws He has set, not man.
Jeremiah 33:25 has to do with God setting day and night, and the order of the seasons as proof that He keeps His word (reference back to 33:20-21).
It was good that God subjected the creation to decay. Paul tells us that everything God made is good:
ReplyDeleteFor everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is recieved with thanksgiving. (1 Tim. 4:4)
Paul here affirms the goodess of everything created by God and the propriety of enjoing it as a gift from Him.
It also tells us in the Psalms that predator/prey activity comes from God and is good:
The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God....These all look to you, to give them their food in due season. When you give it to them they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are filled with GOOD. (Psalms 104:21-28).
The Bible says that carvivors recieve their prey from God's hand (Job 38:39-41; Psalms 104:21, 24-28). Psalms 104:27-28 describes how God's creatures recieve their food from God and it is decribed as being GOOD. You may wan't to exercise caution in calling something evil that God calls good. This is what the gnostics fell into in calling creation evil.
Also, the land of eden was free of thorns and thistles. Only Adam and Eve had access to the tree of life in the land of Eden (paradise)
ReplyDeleteParadise was in a localized region at the time.
Hi, Cody_Ray.
ReplyDeleteRe "You may wan't to exercise caution in calling something evil that God calls good."
I don't think I did that. That God provides (as in Mathew 6:26), cannot be construed as "good" IF and WHEN compared to the way things should be. Remember what is in the future:
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," says the LORD.
THAT is the way creation was supposed to stay, until the fall messed everything up.
Re "Paradise was in a localized region at the time."
Yes, still that doesn't matter much. "Paradise" was supposed to encompass the whole earth eventually. If everything had gone according to the original plan, Adam and Eve would have been fruitful and multiplied, as the animals eventually would also, and the localized "land of Eden" would have overrun eventually, spilling out into the whole of the earth.
All I was trying to convey was that I think a simple, straightforward approach to Biblical study is very helpful in understanding the Bible. I am only in disagreement with the idea that creation would take billions of years, when literal 24 hr. days would suffice, since God is as powerful enough to pull it off.
Thank you very much, Cody_Ray, for your comments. Please feel free to leave the last word about this matter.
Happy New Year, and I hope to hear from you in the future.
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ReplyDeleteThe lamb and the lion were that way in the land of Eden, not the entire creation.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the days of creation were 24 hrs long in the preparation of "the land" (promised land or land of Eden) Here's my interpretation in more detail:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
I interpret this to mean everything - stars, planets, plants, animals - everything.
Then at a particular point in time for what ever reason (perhaps because of the the fall of Satan)
"The land" was empty and void and darkness was on the surface of the waters as the Spirit hovered over the water"
"The land" is most often a reference to the promised land in the books of Moses. Job tells us why there is darkness covering "the land"
Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, when I made clouds it's garment and thick darkness its swadling band. Job 38:9
So the perspective is from an observer hovering over the waters in "the land" with darkness covering "the land" because it is covered in thick clouds.
We often see this in the Bible when God brings judgment upon a land. He comes with clouds and darkness:
The day of the Lord is comming. It is close at hand - a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. (Joel 2:1-2).
We also see this in Jeremiah 4:23 where God is about to bring judgment upon Judah:
I looked on the land, and behold, it was without form and void;
And to the heavens and they had no light...
It's my belief that the heavens had no light because they were covered in a thick cloud covering. This is true with Genesis chapter one. There's darkness in "the land" (the promised land or the land of Eden) because there is a thick cloud covering "the land" blocking out the light from the heavenly bodies.
Day four is the activity of God whereby he clears away the thick clouds and the sun, moon, and stars become visible to the observer in "the land"
Verses 16-18 of Genesis chapter one is a parenthetical comment reminding us that it was God who made the sun, moon, and stars that now have become visible to the observer in "the land". It's not telling us when God made them. It tells us that they were created in verse 1, "In the beginnig God created the heavens and earth.
So, the first thing God does is create the universe and everything in it over billions of years. Then He sets out to prepare "the land" for His people in six 24 hr. days to give them a pattern to follow when He brings them into "the land"
In the beginning God creates the heavens and earth - the universe, stars, planets, plants, animals.
Day One - God says let there be light and light from the heavenly bodies appear through the cloud covering to the observer in "the land".
Day Two - God then clears away the clouds and makes the firmament in "the land" by dividing the waters above (clouds) from the waters below.
Day Three - God then clears the water off the ground in "the land" so the dry ground appears. God then commands the dry ground in "the land" to produce fruit trees and seed bearing plants.
Day Four - God then breaks apart the cloud cover in "the land" so that the sun, moon, and stars, become visible to the observer on the face of "the land"
Day Five - God makes the fish and other water creatures in the seas arround "the land".
Day Six - God makes the land animals to inhabit "the land". The animals in "the land" that God makes on the sixth day are all tame plant eaters. Outside "the land" are the untamed meat eaters. God then makes humans.
Day Seven - God rests.